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Post by cyndi on Sept 14, 2012 13:24:28 GMT -5
Hello, I am new here, and am not trying to be sassy or anything, but what is it about John Lyons training that appeals to you? I heard of John a couple of years ago, but haven't "investigated" his method more fully until now. Many trainers nowadays are teaching people to ride by using seat and leg cues only (and your "core"), and not using the reins much at all (if ever). From my understanding, John uses the reins for steering and the legs are used for speed control only. Personally, I like the "simplicity" of John's way. Does anyone combine his ways with the other ways (of using your core)? Would like to hear some testimonials, if possible. How has this changed your relationship with your horse, etc... I look forward to hearing from you as I await my copy of "Lyons on Horses" Cyndi in Canada
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Post by ghostrider on Sept 14, 2012 14:28:49 GMT -5
Because it works. Without any contact we can tell the horse many things, go, stop, turn both ways, look at me, come here, who the alpha is and that I can make him move with out pain. It also tells him he's important to my herd. Think of just the bit alone...one rein-one pressure point. Why do we need any more? You pick up one rein and the horse has a direct line to what it is you want. One line can tell a horse everything without confusing him. Drop your head, disengage, turn, stop...all with just one rein. You get more without adding more. Because you aren't steering with your legs does not mean you don't use your core. You think, your body reacts ever so slightly and the horse senses it. How does a horse know if you want him to stop, drop his head or begin a turn when you pick up the rein? because your body gives off slight differences when you think about what you are going to ask.
I started with Lyons on Horses and loved it. Then went on to the cue books all of them are great.
So are you a beginner rider or just searching out something new?
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Post by Speckles on Sept 14, 2012 17:20:46 GMT -5
I love John too, for all the reasons that ghostrider listed. Lyons on Horses is a great book. Even though it's been around for many years, it lays out John's philosophy and basic techniques in a very understandable way. What I found even more interesting is that John is also very "classical". When I read Xenophon's book on training horses (it was written about 2500 years ago) it was amazing how similar it is to John, the Dorrances, Ray Hunt, and so forth. A lot of people throw him in with the "cowboy" trainers, but his method supports any riding discipline. He has, in fact, ridden a few demo dressage tests in his lifetime, and apparently did quite well.
I've had the priviledge of seeing John a number of times at Equine Affaire, and he is amazing. The last time he had Charlie and Preacher ("at liberty" as some folks like to say) and he rode Gracie, a gorgeous buttermilk buckskin mare. He had Charlie trained to stay in the middle between the other 2, and kept them all on their toes using a lot of vocal signals, along with rein and leg cues. All the while he was talking to the audience while he kept asking for a particular movement. Simply an amazing ability to focus on both the horses and the audience at the same time. He has "retired" but I think that he's just cut back on his schedule and the size of his operation. His son Josh is in Tennessee carrying on the "Legacy."
Welcome to the board! We are a small but very enthusiatic group. I don't do Facebook so this is where I come for my JL fix.
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Post by cyndi on Sept 14, 2012 19:31:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies Ghostrider, I guess I am both a "beginner" rider as well as searching for something more My lovely mare and I have been together for four years. She is my first horse, and I bought her the year I turned 40, so I'm no spring chicken. lol I grew up around horses, but didn't ride nearly as much as a teenager wants to, and I never had formal riding lessons. Maybe that's why John's method appeals to me so much - it reminds me of the way I grew up in the Canadian Prairies. Years ago I heard about Monty Roberts, and was very open to the idea of "non-force" training. I bought a few of his books, but found that I was a bit lost once I got my mare and we achieved Join-Up, because I didn't know where to go from there. Also, before I bought my mare, I was told about PNH, so I started taking some lessons before I got her, as well as after I got her. A couple of years ago I even boarded her at a Parelli barn for a few months. But neither of us really took to it. I've managed to acquire quite a library, having learned about the "methods" of Monty Roberts, Parelli, Kelly Marks, Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling, Chris Irwin, etc.. All of these people were brought to my attention at just the right time, and I learned many things from them. However, not being very confident, I tended to get the feeling that in order to achieve what these people have, I had to be a "professional". A few years ago I subscribed to John's magazine, and found it very interesting. He made everything look so easy, for even someone like me But I didn't pursue it, for whatever reason. Most likely, it's because I just wasn't ready for it. Now I've come full circle and am ready. My mare is very sensitive, so I've been searching for a training method that suits both of us. Neither of us has had much time in the saddle together. She is ten, was lightly saddle trained as a five-year-old, and then I bought her when she was six. Rather than confuse her with a dozen different methods, I just did basic things with her on the ground. It was just me who got confused and overwhelmed But I am happy to say that my mind is clearing and I definitely have a sense of what works for us and what doesn't. I need to learn to be a better leader, as both of us have confidence issues. She has spooked in the past, which consisted of crow hopping a bit, and I just slid off her, due to my own lack of balance. Once I'm off she doesn't run away, but will turn and face me. She usually comes up to me. She is a sweet horse, but because of those falls, I am a bit unsure on her. And because of that, she is unsure, and it becomes a vicious cycle. I really like how John gives suggestions for exercises, as having something specific to focus on is what I need. I am looking forward to reading the book, and hope to get a few of his DVDs eventually. Sorry to ramble on. Thanks for putting up with my tale. Believe it or not, this is the short version!! lol ~C~
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Post by tripledeuce on Sept 14, 2012 20:52:30 GMT -5
The only "problem with Johns methods is that they are so simple, that sometimes the learner "knows" its got to be harder that it really is. My wife and I have been "into" horses a lonnnnnnnnnnnng time.LOL!! We;vie seen all the "big name" trainers, and hundreds of "small timers". We've always come back to John. Threes a logical progression, and John showes everything in his videos. My only "comment is, you really need to view the videos a number of times as you work with your horse, as you will find "new" thing as you and your horse progress. One of my favorites is Bring up baby. it has lessons that every horse from 3 months to 30 years old need to know, The one key of all of Johns teachings is " the give". weather its the nose, or the tail, the "key" is the release of pressure when you get what it is you are asking the horse for.
Read the books, watch the videos, and come back and talk to us. All of us are happy to be of help. Respectfully Terry
PS. Welcome!
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Post by ghostrider on Sept 14, 2012 22:29:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation Cyndi. I am also no spring chicken (turned 50 in July) and I've never taken a professional lesson. I grew up in the prairies of Wyoming until 4 years ago when I moved to the mid-east. I did put in thousands of hours on horseback in the hills, mountains and prairies though and started what we called "breaking" horses when I was young. Breaking = wet saddle blankets. After a spell of moving around with DH I ended up once again with horses and decided that I wanted to actually KNOW more than ride em till they're broke. I found the terminology to be the hardest hurdle. I had no idea what hips/shoulder/shoulder was or giving to pressure or a clock. LOL that one took me a long time to get. Not that I didn't teach the horse to give but I'd never heard it described and defined before. And many things with JL's methods are broke down so you understand why the horse responds and what you can do to break it down for the horse as well, making training a lot easier.
I've never personally met John or Jodi but I can tell you they're great people who care. When I was at my lowest they took the time to send me a card and gift. I'll never forget their loving kindness for someone they'd never met.
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Post by cyndi on Sept 15, 2012 8:24:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome, Terry, and also for the recommendation of "Bringing Up Baby". My mare is really good about turning to face me, leading, moving parts of her body away from me when asked, etc., but I've added the book to my list (I have been able to get pretty much all of my "horse library" for free, for which I am so very thankful). I'm sure there are ways I can use the book to fine-tune what she knows (perhaps explaining each in a way that's easier for both of us to understand), as well as teach things that I never realized needed teaching! One thing I still struggle with is earning her complete trust, so that she is happy to be with me and not so concerned about what is going on around us. I'm guessing that has a lot to do with me needing to be a better leader. With solid lessons to follow, and knowing WHY I'm to ask her to do something, my leadership confidence will improve. So many times we are just told to do "something" with our horses, yet we never know why. It sounds like John readily gives the "why".
Ghostrider, I totally understand what you are saying about being confused by terminology!! I know that there are things that I do with my mare that I just do naturally, and yet if I read about a term that is used for it, I get confused and over-think it.
What a wonderful thing John and Jodi did for you! How thoughtful and caring of them. John's humbleness is one thing that draws me to him for sure. Even when I watch him on YouTube, his voice is so calming and not "showy".
Thanks again for all the input!
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Post by ghostrider on Sept 15, 2012 22:49:06 GMT -5
I am a good leader and a terrible leader. I have two mustangs, one is 13 and one is 15. I am full time keeper of both even though we adopted Boomer the younger one for my son when he was 11.
I have the attitude towards my grey, Buddy... that I am boss and you will respect me. I will feed you, care for you and even spoil you but when you're asked to put on a saddle and go riding you will do as you're asked without any hoop-la! It's the least he can do. He's a very good boy and has overcome a lot in 8 years. He's as good on the ground as he is in the saddle. He was very aggressive and spooky when I got him at 7. Today we almost never have an issue (can't remember the last one) and he goes anywhere I ask.
Then there's Boomer.. He's not mine (not really although the kid lives in WY and really for all purposes he is mine) I don't ride him but down the road and back once a year...therefore it doesn't matter that he's spoiled rotten and has an attitude. He doesn't know "MY SPACE" and when he doesn't want to go he will turn around so you don't have leverage on the lead rope. He's basically a 1100 lb puppy dog with bad habits. I know... bad me.
It wasn't always that way. I adopted him at 5, I gentled him, trained him on the ground then in the saddle and he was really a 5 year old bomb proof kids horse. Then the kid started riding him and they became "partners in crime." Boys allow their partners a lot of freedoms. Boomer obeys Matt but Mustangs bond to one person and he lets me know it's not me.
I keep thinking he's going to be my fall project, I'm gonna start him over but my niece just moved out of state and Boomer's back to retirement.
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Post by cyndi on Nov 25, 2012 17:36:12 GMT -5
I decided that I'd post a couple photos of my girl, Fanny. Hopefully the photos aren't too large! I've posted photos in other forums from Photobucket and they end up being quite small, yet when I post them in here they are huge! lol This is the most recent photo, from this past summer/fall. I've mentioned before (in another thread) that I've had problems with Fanny wanting to turn all the time when I was on her, and she acted more spooky. Well...big breakthrough a week ago!! Fanny was having a Cranial/Sacral treatment and the therapist wanted to check her out while saddled. We found out that the saddle is putting pressure on Fanny's shoulders! Her movement has been impeded, and she's been in pain! The therapist said that she could see that Fanny was not showing "attitude" when I got on her...she was just feeling discomfort. Even with that discomfort she still tried her best to do what I asked of her. What a love.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2012 17:48:50 GMT -5
Awesome! When I saw the saddled picture on another thread, I didn't think her saddle fit. I'm no expert, so just kept my mouth shut. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this is the root of all her issues? And yes...what a sweet horse.
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Post by cyndi on Nov 25, 2012 20:38:14 GMT -5
How could you tell from the side photo that the saddle wasn't right??!! You know more than you think! Wow, I feel like such a numbskull for not noticing it myself
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2012 20:49:00 GMT -5
OH no...you are not a numbskull. For some reason....saddle fitting is fairly easy for me. I dunno why. ;-) but like I said, Im NOT an expert, nor do I claim to know what I'm talking about. So just ignore me. ;-)
Does this mean you get to go saddle shopping? I really do believe that an ill fitting saddle can do so much to a horse.
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Post by cyndi on Nov 25, 2012 21:38:26 GMT -5
Yeah...some saddle shopping in the future for me :/ This time I will get demos and have someone check the fit. Because Fanny's weight fluctuates so much, I'd like to stick to treeless, but I want one that is more structured than what I have now. One with built-in panels would be ideal. I like the simplicity of gaucho saddles. There are three saddles on my short list, so we'll see what happens. With colder temperatures coming, I may hold off until spring to "test drive" the demos. Until then, I will work on groundwork...and if I am feeling brave, I'll get on Fanny with her bareback pad on. Your saddle fitting ability is a gift
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2012 21:57:03 GMT -5
That's a good idea. I think I'd wait, too. You need to really be able to work with the horse and saddles. I love new saddles/hate buying them. It is such a process to find one that fits! In the end, though, she will be a happier horse!
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Post by ghostrider on Nov 25, 2012 23:52:43 GMT -5
Saddle fitting is as easy as finding a reputable dealer or company. Most good companies have expert fitters. Some will even send someone to your horse. You use the curve or hanger to measure then take pics of the front, sides and back and they will send you the right saddle. And it should be guaranteed. For structure you could also buy a flex tree. All the structure and it will adjust somewhat with the weight gain/loss.
Right around early Spring you can find great deals on saddles. Do not know why it's then? maybe they are getting ready for the new line of saddles.
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